Talk:Winter War

Awkward sentence?

Hi, either that, or a clueless non-native EN speaker ... but in the sentence (Soviet intentions, final para, Kotkin) "... unlike the pacts of mutual assistance, /.../ Finland was demanded limited territorial concessions and even offered land in return..." the wording "... Finland was demanded ..." reads wronglishly to me. How about "... the territorial concessions demanded were limited, and Finland was even offered land in return ...", or "..., the Soviet Union demanded limited territorial concessions and even offered Finland land in return ..."? Or the sentence is fine, then forget it. T 84.208.65.62 (talk) 23:30, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I've reworded that sentence. Betelgeuse X (talk) 10:38, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 March 2024

Please change "Hostilities ceased in March 1940 with the signing of the Moscow Peace Treaty in which Finland ceded 9% of its territory to the Soviet Union." to "Hostilities ceased in March 1940 with the signing of the Moscow Peace Treaty in which Finland ceded 11% of its territory to the Soviet Union." Arlecchinoswife (talk) 11:20, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

The official yearly statistics reports published by the Finnish state from 1939 and 1940 list land areas of 382,801 square kilometers and 347,717 square kilometers, respectively. A difference of nine percent.

https://www.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/69246/stv_1939.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

https://www.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/69230/stv_1940.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

This article also states that Finland ceded nine percent of its territory:

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2022-03-24-putin-march-of-devastation-in-ukraine-echoes-stalins-1939-finland-winter-war-invasion/

Betelgeuse X (talk) 12:39, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

References

Debate over whether the Winter War was a Soviet victory or not

In my opinion, the Winter War was a Soviet Pyrrhic victory. Now, I know that a good chunk of you reading this will probably write a few paragraphs on why the Soviet Union didn't win, so I want to say that i'll listen to any of your arguments.

It was a Soviet victory (sort of), and they got what they wanted (or, what they claimed they wanted). They manage to force the Finns to surrender (sort of) by signing the Moscow Peace Treaty. They got half of the Karelian Isthmus, they got their naval base, and they got more influence in the region. On the other hand, they didn't get what a majority of the historical community accepts what they actually wanted: the complete annexation of Finland. They suffered a horrific amount of casualties in terms of manpower and armor. Their international reputation was ruined. The poor performance of the Red Army in the Karelian Isthmus convinced Hitler that the Soviet Union was weak, and therefore resulted in the Invasion of the Soviet Union. A good chunk people on here point to the establishment of the Finnish Democratic Republic as proof that the Soviets wanted to annex Finland as a socialist republic. But, it's likely that the Soviets wanted a buffer/puppet state (like the nations of the Warsaw Pact after the war). Even if the Soviets theoretically manage to annex all of Finland, would the Finnish population accept rule under a government with a system that they disagreed with and under the influence of a nation that they despised? Annexation of Finland would've resulted in an insurgency that the Soviets had to deal with, taking manpower and resources that would be needed if the Germans attacked (which they did). Then the Germans would've (probably) won in the East with the help of Finnish partisans drawing troops away from the Eastern Front that the Soviets needed. If the Soviets DID manage to annex Finland, it would've been undone in 10 years anyway, so I think that the theory that the Soviets wanted to annex all of Finland is ridiculous. It would've been a waste of manpower and time for a pointless cause; resources that they needed for the fight against the Germans. Ulysses S. Grant III (talk) 14:15, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Your post is full of speculation and "original research".

It's clear that the Soviets wanted to annex Finland. You already brought up the Terijoki puppet government. Announcing their intention to install the puppet government into Helsinki and dropping leaflets over Helsinki saying that the Soviets were coming "not as conquerors but as liberators" makes it even more obvious that annexation was the reason for invading. So does their invasion all along the full length of the border, hundreds of kilometers away from the land on the Karelian Isthmus that they claimed to only be interested in. Red Army troops were warned not cross into Sweden. And of course, there's the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, where the land falling under the Soviet sphere just so happened to form the western border of the Russian Empire, and this includes Finland. In other words, the invasion intended to return Finland to Russian control. Betelgeuse X (talk) 19:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

The part about the whole border being attacked, I didn’t mention. It’s just my idea about how the Soviets won the war and how it didn’t. Also, that “speculation” is alternate history.

Also, I mentioned the Finnish populace. They would never accept being apart of the Soviet Union. They would’ve launched a rebellion immediately. Ulysses S. Grant III (talk) 22:23, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

This isn't the place to discuss alternate history. The idea that the "Finns would launch a rebellion" makes zero sense as an argument against annexation being the Soviet objective. Not to mention that Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, eastern Poland, and Bessarabia were all successfully annexed by the USSR in 1939 and 1940. Betelgeuse X (talk) 05:49, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, even if their original intention WAS to annex Finland, their plan was ruined by the stubborn Finnish defence, and they settled on annexing a good chunk of Finland instead of just annexing the whole country.

In the case of Eastern Poland, they used the Belarusian and Ukrainian populations of the East as an excuse to attack Poland. For the Baltic states, they claimed that they wanted to protect the Baltic states from German invasion (which is obviously not true). For Bessarabia, they just strait up did whatever they want because they could (with Germany's support). And for all of them, rebuilding the old Russian Empire to it's former borders was obviously Stalin's intentions. But when it came to Finland, those plans were obviously ruined. Ulysses S. Grant III (talk) 12:08, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what's being debated now. It seems like you agree that Stalin was trying to annex Finland after all. Betelgeuse X (talk) 15:09, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 November 2024

Under the header `Soviet order of battle`, please change "Mannerhiem Line" to "Mannerheim Line" for in-line consistency with the rest of the article. 114.77.55.68 (talk) 09:14, 19 November 2024 (UTC)